Jesus, the Great I AM

Originally posted by Muslim

Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was born, I was the I am that I am."

The sentence "Before Abraham was, I am.", makes no sense and does not confirm that he was claiming to be "I am".

Please look at this translation, which confirms that Jesus was no I am:

"John 8:58 Jesus answered, 'I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.' "

No I am in this translation from Worldwide English New Testament.Greek reads before Abraham was, I am.

ENDQUOTE

The Greek reads as follows:

πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι
prin abraam genesthai ego eimi

The proper translation is:

before Abraham was, I AM

This was a clear reference to Exodus 3:14:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

That the Jews understood the reference to Exodus 3:14 is clear from their reaction:

Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. John 8:59

This was another case of Jesus claiming to be God:

18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father,making Himself equal with God. John 5:18

33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." John 10:33

Ibn-Hazm (Khazem) and Corruption - Analysis

Ibn-Hazm (Khazem) and Corruption

The cornerstone of Muslim Apologetics to Christians is the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption.  However, most Muslims:

1. Do not know the history of this doctrine.

2. Have never thought through the theological implications of this doctrine.

3. Have never thought through the Historical implications of this doctrine.

 In this thread, I would like to discuss these issues.

History of the Doctrine:

Ibn Hazm (aka Ibn Khazem) was the first Muslim to posit the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption in the 11th century AD.  Thus for the first four centuries of Islamic history this doctrine did not exist. This is in keeping with a literal grammatical reading of the Quran which claims to be " a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture" Surah 10:37

However, Ibn Hazm noticed that the Quran does not live up to the standard which it proclaims:

"Ibn-Khazem saw the contradictions between the Qur'an and the Gospels. One obvious example being the Qur'anic text `They slew him not and they crucified him not' Surah 4:156. `Since the Qur'an must be true,' Ibn- Khazem argued, `it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians.' His argument was not based on historical facts, but purely on his own reasoning and on his wish to safeguard the truth of the Qur'an. I. DI MATTEO, (`Il "takhrif" od alterazione della Bibbia secondo i musulmani', Bessarione 38 (1922) 64-111; 223-260; `Le preteze contradizzioni della S. Scrittura secondo Ibn-Hazm', Bessarione 39 (1923) 77-127, E. FRITSCH, op. cit., p. 66.)"

"Nothing could stop him from pursuing this accusation, it seemed the easiest way to attack the opponents. `If we prove the falsehood of their books, they lose the arguments they take from them.' (IBN KHAZEM, Kitab al-fasl fi'l-milah wa'l ahwa'l nikhal, II,6; E. FRITSCH, op cit., p.55) and this led to him eventually making the cynical statement `The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which Allah has left intact as argument against them.' ( IBN KHAZEM, ibid.; E. FRITSCH, op. cit, p. 64)"

"Later writers took up the same reasoning, enlarged it and embellished it. The falsification of the Bible was thus asserted by Salikh Ibn-al-Khusain (died 1200AD), Ahmad at-Qarafi (died 1285AD), Sa'id Ibn-Khasan (died 1320AD), Muhammad Ibn-Abi-Talib (died 1327AD), Ibn-Taimija (died 1328AD) and many others. From then on it has become a fixed ingredient of Muslim apologetics."

Source: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/138007

Theological Implications of the Doctrine:

If God was either unable or unwilling to keep His Word from corruption, then He is not God. If He was not able to keep His Word from corruption then He is not Omnipotent and thus not God. If He was unwilling to keep His Word from Corruption then His attributes of Veracity and Immutability are compromised and He is not God:

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.Isaiah 40:8

Historical Implications of the Doctrine:

The historical implications of this doctrine are huge. The Bible is by far the most well attested book of antiquity. The manuscript evidence is much stronger than any other ancient writing. Thus to throw out the Bible as corrupted is to throw out the writings of: Homer, Virgil, Tacitus, Josephus, Julius Caesar, Ovid, Virgil, Euripides, Sophocles, Aristotle, Suetonius, etc., basically all of Ancient History.

Thus, Ibn Hazm's doctrine of Biblical Corruption makes no sense. It should be rejected by the honest Muslim. It is an impediment to the necessary confrontation of the critical question:

What is the real reason why the Quran and the Bible disagree on most major doctrines?

Purpose of the Virgin Birth

I congratulate you on having the courage to drill down on the Virgin Birth.

However, you missed a key passage in your analysis:

Is 7:14:
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel."

The fulfillment of this and further explanation is here:

Matt 1:18-23
18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

19And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.

20But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

21“She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:

23“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

Notice, Mary conceived a child with the Holy Spirt being the Father and the name of the Child is עמנו אל (Immanuel). "God with Us"

So two purposes for the Virgin Birth are stated here:

1. To accomplish the incarnation of God the Son as the God-Man, Jesus Christ. God the Holy Spirt supplied the divine Y Chromosome and Mary Supplied the human X Chromosome.

2. To save the people from their sins. In order to be the Sin Bearer, Jesus had to be "without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet 1:19) meaning he could not have a sin nature. The Virgin Birth accomplished this as the sin nature is passed down through the human male in copulation:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22

Bible Verses proving that God's Word Can NEVER be Corrupted

Muslims, please stop the lunacy of the lie Ibn-Hazm (Khazem). God promises to safeguard His Word from Corruption--It is HIS Word--If He cannot protect it, then He is not God:

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever. (Isaiah 40:8)

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (Matt 5:18)

Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. (Matt 24:35)

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail. (Luke 16:17)

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Pslam 138:2

but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you. 1 Pet 1:25

Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens. Psalm 119:89

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Luke 21:33

Bible Verses About Corruption

Muslim friends, please, forsake the lie of Ibn-khazem (Hazm) that the Bible has been corrupted. It is a lie and it makes fruitful, intelligent discussion of Christianity vs Islam impossible.

QUOTEMuslim
"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. Jer 8:8
ENDQUOTE

Please read the context of this verse from Jer 8:4-9. What is being said is that by neglecting the law, the Jews made it of no effect, vain, a lie.

A parallel passage is Matt 15:5-6:

5"But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"

6he is not to honor his father or his mother' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Also there are plenty of passages in the Bible that warn of those who would corrupt the Word of God--if they could--but they cannot--because it is God's Word--He preserves it. The passages in the Quran that were cited are simply parallel to these passages from the Bible:

For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. 2 Cor 2:17

but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 2 Cor 4:2

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. Rev 22:18-19

You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deut 4:2

Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. Deut 12:32

Every word of God has proven to be true. He is a shield to those who come to him for protection
Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar. Prov 30:5-6

As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; Eph 4:14

More on Ibn-Khazem - Part 3

Corruption of the holy books

Main article: Tahrif

Thorough comparison of the Qur'an with the modern texts of the other holy books shows obvious disagreements: The Torah disagrees in the narratives of Creation, Adam, Ishmael, and many others. The Gospel (the Injil) disagrees on whether Jesus is the Son of God and God incarnate, whether he died, and whether he is the way to salvation of the soul. All three books are written from a human perspective while the Qur'an says they were revealed from God's perspective. Example given by Jesus himself in the book of Luke Chapter 6:1-11

The first known Muslim to recognize this was Ibn Hazm, vizier of Spain and writer against Christians. He concluded that because they were in disagreement, the Bible (containing the Torah, Zabur, and Injil) must be wrong. However, knowing that the Qur'an states "believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what (scripture) was revealed before thee (the Torah and the Injil)." Qur'an Surah 4.162, he concluded, "Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians after the time of Muhammad."

Some scholars, such as Al Ghazzali (?-1111 CE), disagreed. Ibn Kathir (1301-1372) wrote that the Jews did not alter the Torah, only their interpretation of the Torah:

The phrase "[they] displace words from (their) right places" means that they misinterpret them and understand them in a way that God did not intend, doing this deliberately and inventing lies against God.

In Deuteronomy 31:24-30 Moses himself predicted the corruption of the commandments by his own people after his death labelling them as stiff-necked and rebellious due to the horrible acts they committed during Moses absence to meet God on Mount Sinai. In other places Jesus himself condemned the act of the scribes and the Pharisees and accusing them with hypocricy and moral illnesses (see Luke 12:52, Luke 21:46-47)

However, in the following two hundred years, most scholars came to agree with Ibn Khazem, but they pushed the date of change earlier, previous to the time of Muhammad. Paul and Constantine were often blamed. In more modern times, the belief of such conspiracy has been downplayed and replaced with the idea that corruption came through many small changes by many copyists in the second and third centuries CE for the Injil. The corruption of the Torah and Zabur was moved back to before the Common Era, before the earliest manuscripts known today. Today, the corruption of the holy books is a virtually undisputed belief.

Source: http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Islamic_Holy_Books

AGAIN, THERE IS NO CHARGE OF THE BIBLE BEING CORRUPTED IN ISLAM PRIOR TO THE 11TH CENTURY AD AND IBN KHAZEM (HAZM)!!!!

More on Ibn-Khazem - Part 2

QUOTEMuslim
Ibn Khazem is NOT Ibn Hazm
ENDQUOTE

Come now. These are the same person. We both know semitic languages. The transliteration can vary.

Did you read the wikipedia article?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Hazm

Ibn Hazm (Khazem) of Spain, Born in 994 AD died in 1064 AD, just as I said.

Everything I cited about him is true.

I have recorded my posts in my blog here:

http://egwpisteuw-refutingislam.blogspot.com/

Now I hope we can move forward to intelligent discussion of Islam versus Christianity and drop this absurd canard of the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption which was a lie of Ibn Hazm (Khazem).

More on Ibn-Khazem

QUOTEMuslim
Ibn khazem? nice fictional name... NO SUCH PERSON IN HISTORY..
ENDQUOTE

You are really digging a hole for yourself.

I am holding in my hand a book called:

"A Short History of Islam" by S.F. Mahmud

Here is the link on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Short-History-Islam-S-Mahmud/dp/0195773845/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1288729622&sr=1-1

Chapter 4 is entitled "Islam in Spain." On page 95, Mahmud says the following:

"The other great name was Ibn Hazm (Ibn-Khazem), who was the greatest writer of them all. He wrote about a hundred books and was equally knowledgeable about history, poetry, traditions, and logic."

Please, stop this insanity. Do the research. What I am telling you is true. Study it out and you will see.

Who is Ibn-Khazem? - Scholarly References

QUOTEMuslim
i dont even have to refute u coz u r merely quoting a stupid website.. stupid argument dont deserve any answers.. :)
ENDQUOTE

Here are some more scholarly references for you:

More than 400 years after Muhammad's death, Ibn-Khazem who died at Cordoba in 1064 AD was the first to allege that the Bible had been corrupted. (P. A. PALMIERI Die Polemik des Islams, German tr. Holzer, Salzburg 1902; E. FRITSCH, Islam und Christentum im Mittelalter, Müller & Seiffert, Breslau 1930; see also. H. HIRSCHFELD, `Muhammadan Criticism of the Bible'. Jewish Quarterly Review 13 (1901) 222-240.) Ibn-Khazem's writings being very influential in later times. (F. M. PAREJA, Islamologia, Orbis Catholicus, Roma 1951, pp. 460-461. )

In his defence of Islam against Christians, Ibn-Khazem saw the contradictions between the Qur'an and the Gospels. One obvious example being the Qur'anic text `They slew him not and they crucified him not' Surah 4:156. `Since the Qur'an must be true,' Ibn- Khazem argued, `it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians.' His argument was not based on historical facts, but purely on his own reasoning and on his wish to safeguard the truth of the Qur'an. I. DI MATTEO, (`Il "takhrif" od alterazione della Bibbia secondo i musulmani', Bessarione 38 (1922) 64-111; 223-260; `Le preteze contradizzioni della S. Scrittura secondo Ibn-Hazm', Bessarione 39 (1923) 77-127, E. FRITSCH, op. cit., p. 66.)

Nothing could stop him from pursuing this accusation, it seemed the easiest way to attack the opponents. `If we prove the falsehood of their books, they lose the arguments they take from them.' (IBN KHAZEM, Kitab al-fasl fi'l-milah wa'l ahwa'l nikhal, II,6; E. FRITSCH, op cit., p.55) and this led to him eventually making the cynical statement `The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which Allah has left intact as argument against them.' ( IBN KHAZEM, ibid.; E. FRITSCH, op. cit, p. 64)

You and the other Muslims need to confront this issue. The entire Doctrine of Biblical Corruption is nothing more than a conspiracy theory invented by Ibn-Khazem in the 11th century and perpetuated by other disingenuous Muslims who followed his lead.

Who is Ibn-Khazem?

QUOTEMuslim
WHOS IBN KHAZEM?
ENDQUOTE

I'm surprised at you. If you want to engage in scholarly debate you have to do your research. Have you never studied Islamic history?:

"In 1064, Ibn-Khazem, FIRST charged that the Bible had been corrupted and the Bible falsified. This charge was to defend Islam against Christianity because Ibn-Khazem come upon differences and contradiction between the Bible and the Quran. Believing, by faith that the Quran was true, the Bible must then be false. He said, "Since the Quran must be true it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians after the time of Muhammad." His argument was not based on any evidence or historical facts but only on his personal faith, reasoning and desire to safeguard the Quran. This led him to teach that, "The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which God has left intact as argument against them."

Source: http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-bible-not-corrupted-early-muslims.htm

"Later writers took up the same reasoning, enlarged it and embellished it. The falsification of the Bible was thus asserted by Salikh Ibn-al-Khusain (died 1200), Ahmad at-Qarafi (died 1285), Sa'id Ibn-Khasan (died 1320), Muhammad Ibn-Abi-Talib (died 1327), Ibn-Taimija (died 1328) and many others. From then on it became a fixed ingredient of Muslim apologetics."

Source: http://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/Text/wijngaards.html

See also: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/74312

THE BIBLE IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN CORRUPTED.

THIS IS A LIE FROM THE PIT OF HELL AND IT SMELLS LIKE SMOKE.

How the Virgin Birth Refutes Islam - Part 4

The Virgin Birth is a real head-scratcher vis-a-vis the Quran. This doctrine carries with it the doctrines of the Deity of Jesus Christ, the Trinity, the doctrine that God begets, and many other doctrines that the Quran rejects.

To accept the doctrine of the Virgin Birth but reject these concomitant doctrines is like saying you have fingers, but no hand, arm, or shoulder. There is a logical intuitive organic connection that cannot be broken.

Come on man, we're really getting to the heart of the matter. We've been reasoning together for months. If you have the courage to drill down on the Virgin Birth and try to understand what it really means, I guarantee I can show you that the Bible explains the doctrine in beautiful detail, while the Quran just hangs it out there--and then refutes it by denying it's purpose.

How the Virgin Birth Refutes Islam - Part 3

QUOTEMuslim
QUESTION :

Did " God the Holy Spirit begat Jesus "

same same like how

Abraham " BEGOT " Isaac
ENDQUOTE

Winnert, the terms used to describe the modus operandi of God the Holy Spirit begetting Jesus are "come upon" (ἐπέρχομαι (eperchomai)) and "overshadow" (ἐπισκιάζω (episkiazo)). These are not terms used of normal copulation between a human male and a human female.

However, the end result is that Jesus was just as much begotten by the Holy Spirit as Isaac was begotten by Abraham (γεννάω (gennao)).

The mechanics of the begetting are not revealed in scripture, only the fact of the begetting is revealed.

The next question that needs to be asked is:

What was the purpose of the Virgin Birth?

In the Quran, there is no purpose.

In the Bible, there is a VERY specific purpose which, of course, further refutes the Quran:

So that God the Son could become unblemished flesh, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, and remove the sin barrier, so that we may be made the Righteousness of God in Him:

The next day he (John the Baptist) saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

He (God the Father) made Him (God the Son, Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5:21

How the Virgin Birth Refutes Islam - Part 2

QUOTEMuslim
however in the Bible.. the suggestion of SEX activity is VERY CLEAR..

1) Holy Ghost OVERSHADOW mary ( jus like a serial rapist trying to overshadow his victim, scaring her )

2) Holy Ghost COME UPON mary ( jus like a serial rapist COMING UPON his victim.. overpowering her so she cant move and fight back.. COMING UPON highly suggest that the Holy Ghost is ON TOP and Mary is BELOW.. sex position? )
ENDQUOTE

You can't do word studies like this. It violates the principles of Biblical Hermeneutics. Here is the proper method of doing an analysis of Luke 1:35:

The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will COME UPON you, and the power of the Most High will OVERSHADOW you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God Luke 1:35

"Come upon" is ἐπέρχομαι (eperchomai) in the Greek. It is specifically used of the Holy Spirit here:

8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has COME UPON you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." Acts 1:8

"Overshadow" is ἐπισκιάζω (episkiazo) in the Greek. This word is used of God here :

34While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to OVERSHADOW them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.
35Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, " This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!" (Luke 9:34-35)

QUOTEMuslim
NONE of u can defend that begetting is NOT Equal to SEX.. NONE!
ENDQUOTE

Aman, another word study is appropriate here:

20an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who HAS BEEN BEGOTTEN in her is of the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:20

HAS BEEN BEGOTTEN here is from γεννάω (gennao) which is the exact same word used throughout the preceding genealogy of Matt 1:1-16. For example:

2Abraham BEGAT Isaac, Isaac BEGAT Jacob, and Jacob BEGAT Judah and his brothers.

Thus the Holy Spirit begat Jesus in the same way that Abraham begat Isaac, Isaac begat Jacob, etc..

Taken together, the coming upon and overshadowing are simply terms used when God comes in direct contact with man. Begetting is a term used for fathering a child. Thus:

The Holy Spirit is God

Jesus is God

God is thus a trinity made up of the Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit

God the Holy Spirit begat Jesus.

Thus I maintain that to accept the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, Deity of Jesus Christ, and the Doctrine that God begets must also be accepted. Thus the Quran is broken, and Islam falls.

How the Virgin Birth Refutes Islam

QUOTEMuslim
i still dont understand HOW accepting the virgin birth of Prophet Jesus Pbuh can refute islamic standpoint which is against Trinity/Deity of Jesus/God begets..
ENDQUOTE

A. Jesus was a male child and thus had both an X and a Y chromosome

B. Mary, being a female, can only supply an X chromosome.

C. So where did the Y chromosome come from?

D. It was supplied by the Holy Spirit:

The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. Luke 1:35

The Child, Jesus, is called, the "Holy" Child because He was begotten by the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High, and Jesus is called the Son of God because the Holy Spirit is God. Thus John 1:18:

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Thus God begets, Jesus is God, and Jesus as God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are both members of the Trinity, along with the Father.

This refutes these three Surahs:

1. Say: Praise be to Allah, who begets no son Surah 17:111

2. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! Surah 4:171

3. They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary" Surah 5:72

God Begets - Part 3

QUOTEMulsim
funny... the jews dont believe God begets a Son

jews and the muslims are together on the same page on this one! we both AGREE THAT GOD CANNOT BEGET A SON!
ENDQUOTE

What kind of argument is this?

What would you say to me if I said that God begets a son because "All Christians believe it and agree on it" ?

Beliefs and opinions are IRRELEVANT. The truth of God's word is all that matters and I showed you verse after verse that proves that God begets.

Why not just accept it? To argue with the clear evidence from scripture is illogical.

God Begets - Part 2

QUOTEMuslim
How can Jesus be the (begotten) son of God while Mary was a virgin? Begotten means "Born of the act of sexual intercourse" which means that either God had sex with Mary (God forbid) or that Mary was not a virgin
ENDQUOTE

All you have to do is read the Gospel in Luke 1:

26Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth,

27to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

30The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

31"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

34Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"

35The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

God Begets

Muslims, why are you trying to contradict the clear witness of the scripture. The verses I quoted from the New Testament (previous post) clearly show that God begets. Here is one from the Old Testament:

I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You. Pslam 2:7

The Hebrew word begotten here is יָלַד (yalad) which means to bring forth a child. The Hebrew word for child יֶלֶד (yeled) is from the same root.

Why not just admit that Surah 112:1-4 is a lie and obey the command of Jesus:

repent and believe in the gospel Mar 1:15

Another Example of Ridiculous Muslim Bible Interpretation

QUOTEMuslim
1 cor 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep

1 cor 15:8 Last of all, as though to one born at the wrong time, he appeared to me also.

did you notice "last of all"? if it is your so called spiritual birth, last of all has no significance. he is claiming he is the last witness of resurrection and its because he was born at the wrong time..... many years later.
ENDQUOTE

Again you prove my point that you cannot understand the scripture because you do not have the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit to teach you all things because you have not been born again.

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is stating that:

The last post-resurrection appearance of Jesus was to Paul. This occurred shortly after (within one year) of the other post-resurrection appearances mentioned in verses 5-7.

The fact that some of the 500 in verse 6 had died is due to the fact that 1 Corinthians was written about 25 years (59 AD) after the appearance of Jesus to Paul.

Why don't you stop the impossible task of trying to break the scripture because Jesus said:

the Scripture cannot be broken John 10:35

and obey the command of Jesus:

'You must be born again John 3:7

Surah 112:1-4 is a Lie

Say, He is Allah the one.
The absolute, eternal.
He begets not nor is he begotten.
And there is none like unto him.
(Surah 112:1-4)

This is a lie from the pit of hell and it smells like smoke. God does beget:

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. John 1:18

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16

He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9

Is the Allah of the Quran = The Satan of the Bible?

QUOTEEgwpisteuw
1. I believe that the Allah of the Quran is the Satan of the Bible, and thus not God.
ENDQUOTE

QUOTEMuslim
1) Proof that Allah= Satan

any proofs?
ENDQUOTE

Here you go:

1. Surah 3:54 says:

Allah is the best of SCHEMERS

Schemers is  "Khayrul-Makereen" in the Arabic which means:

to scheme
to deceive, delude, cheat, double cross
cunning, craftiness, slyness
wiliness, double dealing, deception, deceit, artifice, guile

This clearly corresponds to the Satan of the Bible:

so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his SCHEMES 2 Cor 2:11

And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who DECEIVES the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Rev 12:9

Now the serpent was more CRAFTY than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden '?" Gen 3:1

Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent DECEIVED me, and I ate." Gen 3:!3

But I am afraid that, as the serpent DECEIVED Eve by his CRAFTINESS, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 2 Cor 11:3

No wonder, for even Satan DISGUISES himself as an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:4

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to LIE to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? Acts 5:3

[Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and LYING wonders, 2 Thess 2:9

A clear match. Satan just couldn't resist revealing himself in the Quran in Surah 3:54.

What is a Muslim?

Since Sophia could not answer my simple question:

What is a Christian?

I will answer the following question to show the type of answer I am looking for:

What is a Muslim?

Answer: A Muslim accepts the Shahada as a declaration of faith:

There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

I do not and never have accepted this for two reasons:

1. I believe that the Allah of the Quran is the Satan of the Bible, and thus not God.
2. I believe that Muhammad is a false prophet duped by Satan, pretending to be Gabriel, who gave to Muhammad a revelation of violence and lies, the Quran.

Thus I come from the position of one who is called by God to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Muslims and all other unbelievers, most of whom are good and decent people, who have been blinded Satan. I am willing to engage them, and use my Spiritual Gift to show them the ONLY true way to God:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.  John 14:6

Professing Christendom vs. Biblical Christianity

QUOTEfrom Muslim
You have pre-judged Sophia as anti-christianity.

So ! whatever truth Sophia writes about christianity,

your " prejudiced & imprisoned " mind, body and soul will ALWAYS receive same as Anti-Christianity !
ENDQUOTE 

(Note: Sophia is a confused ex-Roman Catholic)

I have indeed formed an opinion of Sophia based on what she has posted:

She is confusing Professing Christendom with Biblical Christianity and there is a HUGE difference between the two--this is the difference between the wheat and the tares in the parable I quoted (Matt 13:24-30).

I am giving her a chance to clarify her position--and I hope she will take advantage of my offer to dialog with her.

Additionally, your definition of the "LAY Christian" is what I call a "Chreaster" Someone who attends church on Christmas and Easter and indeed "knows very, very, little about bible & christianity" as you say. This person is a part of Professing Christendom but is likely not a Biblical Christian.

A Biblical Christian is someone who has personally received Jesus Christ as Savior:

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name John 1:12

On Mark 16:9-20

QUOTE from a Muslim
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15"

hey buddy... i hate to tell u this but this verse IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN CODEX SINAITICUS!

http://www.codex-sinaiticus.net/en/

ENDQUOTE

You are looking at Biblical manuscripts--very impressive. That is an excellent site for Sinaiticus. The answer to your question is that Mark 16:9-20 is not found in Codex Sinaiticus or in several other manuscripts:

"The last twelve verses of the commonly received text of Mark are absent from the two oldest Greek manuscripts (א and B), from the Old Latin codex Bobiensis (it k), the Sinaitic Syriac manuscript, about one hundred Armenian manuscripts, and the two oldest Georgian manuscripts (written A.D. 897 and A.D. 913)"

Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (Stuttgart, 1971)

Therefore, doctrine cannot be built on these verses alone.

However, the doctrine contained in Mark 16:15 is repeated in the following verses which are in all manuscripts:

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matt 28:19

if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul,
have become a servant. Col 1:23

The rule in textual criticism is that if a verse is not conatined in all manuscripts (and VERY few verses are not) you cannot build doctrine on that verse unless that doctrine it is supported by other verses.

Hyper-literal Muslim Bible Interpretation

Here is an example of hyper-literal Muslim Bible Interpretation. Someone asked me this question and my response follows:

QUOTE
Who was Jesus wife and how many children Jesus had ?

Isaiah 53 : 10

".....HE WILL SEE HIS OFFSPRING and PROLONG HIS DAYS. "
ENDQUOTE

Are you serious? It means spiritual offspring not physical:

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name John 1:12

Aren't you embarrased by the absurd Muslim wooden ultra-hyper-literal interpretation of the Bible?

Muslims who interpret the Bible like this are idiot savants--without the savant part.

Muslims Must Become Blind

39And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."

40Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"

41Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains. John 9:39-41

What Jesus is saying here is that the irreligious so-called "sinners" i.e., prostitutes, tax-gatherers, and other undesirables of society were actually much closer to salvation than the "religious" Scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees.

The irreligious are spiritually blind--and they know it. Thus when they hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ they can accept it with joy as something they know is missing in their life.

The religious think that they are not blind, they have their false religion--and thus they think they see. Thus they must first be shown that their false religion is a lie--they must become blind--then they can receive the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and receive sight.

Therefore, I pray for Muslims, that they will become blind.  

The Light of Islam is Darkness

The Light of Islam is Darkness

I gave this response to a Muslim who told me she hoped I would see the light of Islam. I see that light--and it is darkness:

If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! Matt 6:23

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Isaiah 5:20

The specific darkness of Islam is directly attributable to Satan, the one who disguises his darkness as light:

No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:14

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isaiah 14:12

Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12 is the Hebrew  הֵילֵל (heylel) which means the shining one, the bright star, the morning star, the light bearer. In Latin it is Lucifer.

Lucifer or Satan is the author of Islam, pretending to be Gabriel he gave a hideous revelation of lies to Muhammad--this is called the Quran.

This is the "light" of Islam--utterly opaque blackness and darkness.

 

The Doctrine of the Virgin Birth: A Proof That the Quran is Illogical

By accepting the Doctrine of the Virgin Birth, the Quran unwittingly refutes itself. Here is the proof:

1. She (Mary) said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! Surah 3:47

2. Say: Praise be to Allah, who begets no son Surah 17:111

3. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! Surah 4:171

4. They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary" Surah 5:72

5. Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. Luke 1:34-35

6. He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Surah 3:3

By accepting the Doctrine of the Virgin Birth the Quran is accepting:

1. The Trinity because in Luke 1: 34-35 the Holy Spirit is the father of the humanity of Jesus Christ and is described as the power of the Most High and thus is God.

2. The Deity of Jesus Christ because the Holy Spirit who is God is His Father

3. The Fact that God does indeed beget because Jesus Christ was begotten by God.

Thus Surah 3:47 combined with 3:3 refutes 17:111, 4:171, and 5:72.

Why the Bible cannot be Corrupted - Psalm 138:2

Muslims try to argue that the Bible has become corrupted. However, this is impossible.

The scripture says:

thou hast magnified thy Word above all thy Name. Pslam 138:2

The Hebrew word for name is  שֵׁם (shem). This word has a very special meaning in the Hebrew. It is "THE NAME", "the celebrated name of God"," A designation for God", It represents God's renown, His Glory, His reputation, His fame. It is a title for God. The Jews use it in place of the sacred tetragrammaton יְהֹוָה (Yahweh).

Thus It represents God Himself and YET GOD SAYS HIS WORD IS ABOVE HIS NAME!

"Above all thy name - Above all else that thou hast done; above all the other manifestations of thyself to me or to the world. The word name here would refer properly to all that God had done to make himself known - since it is by the name that we designate or distinguish anyone; and, thus understood, the meaning would be, that the word of God - the revelation which he has made of himself and of his gracious purposes to mankind - is superior in clearness, and in importance, to all the other manifestations which he has made of himself; all that can be known of him in his works." Barnes Notes on Psalm 138:2

THUS IF GOD ALLOWED HIS WORD TO BECOME CORRUPTED, HE ALLOWED HIMSELF TO BECOME CORRUPTED AND IS NOT GOD!

Extra-Biblical witnesses of the Crucifixion, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ

The Quran contains the following lie:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Quran Surah 4:157 7th century AD

This is refuted not only by the Bible, but also by the following extra-Biblical witnesses:

1. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus... Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome

2. At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive... Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian

3. The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. ... You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws Lucian - 2nd century Greek Satirist

4. What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burying Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. Mara Bar-Serapion, of Syria, circa 70 AD

Source: http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/extrabiblical.htm

Ibn-Khazem and the Lie that the Bible is Corrupted

Here is a short 5 point refuation of the lie that the Bible is corrrupted:

1. The Quran does not EVER mention the Bible being corrupted

2. The early Muslims NEVER made such a charge

3. Ibn-Khazem came along in the 11th century--400 YEARS AFTER MUHAMMAD--and pulled this charge OUT OF THIN AIR, because he realized that the Quran did not confirm the Bible as it says it does (e.g., Surah 3:3 and many other verses). Ibn-Khazem specifically was perplexed that Surah 4:157 disagreed with the clear Gospel accounts that Jesus was indeed crucified and killed and yet Surah 3:3 specifically asserts that the Quran confirms the Gospel.

4. Later Muslims picked up this absurd charge because they felt it was the only way to attempt to defend Islam. It thus became a fixed part of Muslim Apologetics 

5. However, no Muslim theologian ever stopped to think through the untenable implications of the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption: If God's Word became corrupted, then God became corrupted and ceased to be God. Psalm 138:2.