Jesus, the Great I AM

Originally posted by Muslim

Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was born, I was the I am that I am."

The sentence "Before Abraham was, I am.", makes no sense and does not confirm that he was claiming to be "I am".

Please look at this translation, which confirms that Jesus was no I am:

"John 8:58 Jesus answered, 'I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.' "

No I am in this translation from Worldwide English New Testament.Greek reads before Abraham was, I am.

ENDQUOTE

The Greek reads as follows:

πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι
prin abraam genesthai ego eimi

The proper translation is:

before Abraham was, I AM

This was a clear reference to Exodus 3:14:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

That the Jews understood the reference to Exodus 3:14 is clear from their reaction:

Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. John 8:59

This was another case of Jesus claiming to be God:

18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father,making Himself equal with God. John 5:18

33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." John 10:33

Ibn-Hazm (Khazem) and Corruption - Analysis

Ibn-Hazm (Khazem) and Corruption

The cornerstone of Muslim Apologetics to Christians is the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption.  However, most Muslims:

1. Do not know the history of this doctrine.

2. Have never thought through the theological implications of this doctrine.

3. Have never thought through the Historical implications of this doctrine.

 In this thread, I would like to discuss these issues.

History of the Doctrine:

Ibn Hazm (aka Ibn Khazem) was the first Muslim to posit the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption in the 11th century AD.  Thus for the first four centuries of Islamic history this doctrine did not exist. This is in keeping with a literal grammatical reading of the Quran which claims to be " a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture" Surah 10:37

However, Ibn Hazm noticed that the Quran does not live up to the standard which it proclaims:

"Ibn-Khazem saw the contradictions between the Qur'an and the Gospels. One obvious example being the Qur'anic text `They slew him not and they crucified him not' Surah 4:156. `Since the Qur'an must be true,' Ibn- Khazem argued, `it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians.' His argument was not based on historical facts, but purely on his own reasoning and on his wish to safeguard the truth of the Qur'an. I. DI MATTEO, (`Il "takhrif" od alterazione della Bibbia secondo i musulmani', Bessarione 38 (1922) 64-111; 223-260; `Le preteze contradizzioni della S. Scrittura secondo Ibn-Hazm', Bessarione 39 (1923) 77-127, E. FRITSCH, op. cit., p. 66.)"

"Nothing could stop him from pursuing this accusation, it seemed the easiest way to attack the opponents. `If we prove the falsehood of their books, they lose the arguments they take from them.' (IBN KHAZEM, Kitab al-fasl fi'l-milah wa'l ahwa'l nikhal, II,6; E. FRITSCH, op cit., p.55) and this led to him eventually making the cynical statement `The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which Allah has left intact as argument against them.' ( IBN KHAZEM, ibid.; E. FRITSCH, op. cit, p. 64)"

"Later writers took up the same reasoning, enlarged it and embellished it. The falsification of the Bible was thus asserted by Salikh Ibn-al-Khusain (died 1200AD), Ahmad at-Qarafi (died 1285AD), Sa'id Ibn-Khasan (died 1320AD), Muhammad Ibn-Abi-Talib (died 1327AD), Ibn-Taimija (died 1328AD) and many others. From then on it has become a fixed ingredient of Muslim apologetics."

Source: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/138007

Theological Implications of the Doctrine:

If God was either unable or unwilling to keep His Word from corruption, then He is not God. If He was not able to keep His Word from corruption then He is not Omnipotent and thus not God. If He was unwilling to keep His Word from Corruption then His attributes of Veracity and Immutability are compromised and He is not God:

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.Isaiah 40:8

Historical Implications of the Doctrine:

The historical implications of this doctrine are huge. The Bible is by far the most well attested book of antiquity. The manuscript evidence is much stronger than any other ancient writing. Thus to throw out the Bible as corrupted is to throw out the writings of: Homer, Virgil, Tacitus, Josephus, Julius Caesar, Ovid, Virgil, Euripides, Sophocles, Aristotle, Suetonius, etc., basically all of Ancient History.

Thus, Ibn Hazm's doctrine of Biblical Corruption makes no sense. It should be rejected by the honest Muslim. It is an impediment to the necessary confrontation of the critical question:

What is the real reason why the Quran and the Bible disagree on most major doctrines?

Purpose of the Virgin Birth

I congratulate you on having the courage to drill down on the Virgin Birth.

However, you missed a key passage in your analysis:

Is 7:14:
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel."

The fulfillment of this and further explanation is here:

Matt 1:18-23
18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

19And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.

20But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

21“She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:

23“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

Notice, Mary conceived a child with the Holy Spirt being the Father and the name of the Child is עמנו אל (Immanuel). "God with Us"

So two purposes for the Virgin Birth are stated here:

1. To accomplish the incarnation of God the Son as the God-Man, Jesus Christ. God the Holy Spirt supplied the divine Y Chromosome and Mary Supplied the human X Chromosome.

2. To save the people from their sins. In order to be the Sin Bearer, Jesus had to be "without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet 1:19) meaning he could not have a sin nature. The Virgin Birth accomplished this as the sin nature is passed down through the human male in copulation:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22

Bible Verses proving that God's Word Can NEVER be Corrupted

Muslims, please stop the lunacy of the lie Ibn-Hazm (Khazem). God promises to safeguard His Word from Corruption--It is HIS Word--If He cannot protect it, then He is not God:

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever. (Isaiah 40:8)

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (Matt 5:18)

Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. (Matt 24:35)

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail. (Luke 16:17)

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Pslam 138:2

but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you. 1 Pet 1:25

Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens. Psalm 119:89

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Luke 21:33

Bible Verses About Corruption

Muslim friends, please, forsake the lie of Ibn-khazem (Hazm) that the Bible has been corrupted. It is a lie and it makes fruitful, intelligent discussion of Christianity vs Islam impossible.

QUOTEMuslim
"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. Jer 8:8
ENDQUOTE

Please read the context of this verse from Jer 8:4-9. What is being said is that by neglecting the law, the Jews made it of no effect, vain, a lie.

A parallel passage is Matt 15:5-6:

5"But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"

6he is not to honor his father or his mother' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Also there are plenty of passages in the Bible that warn of those who would corrupt the Word of God--if they could--but they cannot--because it is God's Word--He preserves it. The passages in the Quran that were cited are simply parallel to these passages from the Bible:

For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. 2 Cor 2:17

but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 2 Cor 4:2

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. Rev 22:18-19

You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deut 4:2

Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. Deut 12:32

Every word of God has proven to be true. He is a shield to those who come to him for protection
Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar. Prov 30:5-6

As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; Eph 4:14

More on Ibn-Khazem - Part 3

Corruption of the holy books

Main article: Tahrif

Thorough comparison of the Qur'an with the modern texts of the other holy books shows obvious disagreements: The Torah disagrees in the narratives of Creation, Adam, Ishmael, and many others. The Gospel (the Injil) disagrees on whether Jesus is the Son of God and God incarnate, whether he died, and whether he is the way to salvation of the soul. All three books are written from a human perspective while the Qur'an says they were revealed from God's perspective. Example given by Jesus himself in the book of Luke Chapter 6:1-11

The first known Muslim to recognize this was Ibn Hazm, vizier of Spain and writer against Christians. He concluded that because they were in disagreement, the Bible (containing the Torah, Zabur, and Injil) must be wrong. However, knowing that the Qur'an states "believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what (scripture) was revealed before thee (the Torah and the Injil)." Qur'an Surah 4.162, he concluded, "Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians after the time of Muhammad."

Some scholars, such as Al Ghazzali (?-1111 CE), disagreed. Ibn Kathir (1301-1372) wrote that the Jews did not alter the Torah, only their interpretation of the Torah:

The phrase "[they] displace words from (their) right places" means that they misinterpret them and understand them in a way that God did not intend, doing this deliberately and inventing lies against God.

In Deuteronomy 31:24-30 Moses himself predicted the corruption of the commandments by his own people after his death labelling them as stiff-necked and rebellious due to the horrible acts they committed during Moses absence to meet God on Mount Sinai. In other places Jesus himself condemned the act of the scribes and the Pharisees and accusing them with hypocricy and moral illnesses (see Luke 12:52, Luke 21:46-47)

However, in the following two hundred years, most scholars came to agree with Ibn Khazem, but they pushed the date of change earlier, previous to the time of Muhammad. Paul and Constantine were often blamed. In more modern times, the belief of such conspiracy has been downplayed and replaced with the idea that corruption came through many small changes by many copyists in the second and third centuries CE for the Injil. The corruption of the Torah and Zabur was moved back to before the Common Era, before the earliest manuscripts known today. Today, the corruption of the holy books is a virtually undisputed belief.

Source: http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Islamic_Holy_Books

AGAIN, THERE IS NO CHARGE OF THE BIBLE BEING CORRUPTED IN ISLAM PRIOR TO THE 11TH CENTURY AD AND IBN KHAZEM (HAZM)!!!!

More on Ibn-Khazem - Part 2

QUOTEMuslim
Ibn Khazem is NOT Ibn Hazm
ENDQUOTE

Come now. These are the same person. We both know semitic languages. The transliteration can vary.

Did you read the wikipedia article?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Hazm

Ibn Hazm (Khazem) of Spain, Born in 994 AD died in 1064 AD, just as I said.

Everything I cited about him is true.

I have recorded my posts in my blog here:

http://egwpisteuw-refutingislam.blogspot.com/

Now I hope we can move forward to intelligent discussion of Islam versus Christianity and drop this absurd canard of the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption which was a lie of Ibn Hazm (Khazem).

More on Ibn-Khazem

QUOTEMuslim
Ibn khazem? nice fictional name... NO SUCH PERSON IN HISTORY..
ENDQUOTE

You are really digging a hole for yourself.

I am holding in my hand a book called:

"A Short History of Islam" by S.F. Mahmud

Here is the link on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Short-History-Islam-S-Mahmud/dp/0195773845/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1288729622&sr=1-1

Chapter 4 is entitled "Islam in Spain." On page 95, Mahmud says the following:

"The other great name was Ibn Hazm (Ibn-Khazem), who was the greatest writer of them all. He wrote about a hundred books and was equally knowledgeable about history, poetry, traditions, and logic."

Please, stop this insanity. Do the research. What I am telling you is true. Study it out and you will see.

Who is Ibn-Khazem? - Scholarly References

QUOTEMuslim
i dont even have to refute u coz u r merely quoting a stupid website.. stupid argument dont deserve any answers.. :)
ENDQUOTE

Here are some more scholarly references for you:

More than 400 years after Muhammad's death, Ibn-Khazem who died at Cordoba in 1064 AD was the first to allege that the Bible had been corrupted. (P. A. PALMIERI Die Polemik des Islams, German tr. Holzer, Salzburg 1902; E. FRITSCH, Islam und Christentum im Mittelalter, Müller & Seiffert, Breslau 1930; see also. H. HIRSCHFELD, `Muhammadan Criticism of the Bible'. Jewish Quarterly Review 13 (1901) 222-240.) Ibn-Khazem's writings being very influential in later times. (F. M. PAREJA, Islamologia, Orbis Catholicus, Roma 1951, pp. 460-461. )

In his defence of Islam against Christians, Ibn-Khazem saw the contradictions between the Qur'an and the Gospels. One obvious example being the Qur'anic text `They slew him not and they crucified him not' Surah 4:156. `Since the Qur'an must be true,' Ibn- Khazem argued, `it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians.' His argument was not based on historical facts, but purely on his own reasoning and on his wish to safeguard the truth of the Qur'an. I. DI MATTEO, (`Il "takhrif" od alterazione della Bibbia secondo i musulmani', Bessarione 38 (1922) 64-111; 223-260; `Le preteze contradizzioni della S. Scrittura secondo Ibn-Hazm', Bessarione 39 (1923) 77-127, E. FRITSCH, op. cit., p. 66.)

Nothing could stop him from pursuing this accusation, it seemed the easiest way to attack the opponents. `If we prove the falsehood of their books, they lose the arguments they take from them.' (IBN KHAZEM, Kitab al-fasl fi'l-milah wa'l ahwa'l nikhal, II,6; E. FRITSCH, op cit., p.55) and this led to him eventually making the cynical statement `The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which Allah has left intact as argument against them.' ( IBN KHAZEM, ibid.; E. FRITSCH, op. cit, p. 64)

You and the other Muslims need to confront this issue. The entire Doctrine of Biblical Corruption is nothing more than a conspiracy theory invented by Ibn-Khazem in the 11th century and perpetuated by other disingenuous Muslims who followed his lead.

Who is Ibn-Khazem?

QUOTEMuslim
WHOS IBN KHAZEM?
ENDQUOTE

I'm surprised at you. If you want to engage in scholarly debate you have to do your research. Have you never studied Islamic history?:

"In 1064, Ibn-Khazem, FIRST charged that the Bible had been corrupted and the Bible falsified. This charge was to defend Islam against Christianity because Ibn-Khazem come upon differences and contradiction between the Bible and the Quran. Believing, by faith that the Quran was true, the Bible must then be false. He said, "Since the Quran must be true it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians after the time of Muhammad." His argument was not based on any evidence or historical facts but only on his personal faith, reasoning and desire to safeguard the Quran. This led him to teach that, "The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which God has left intact as argument against them."

Source: http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-bible-not-corrupted-early-muslims.htm

"Later writers took up the same reasoning, enlarged it and embellished it. The falsification of the Bible was thus asserted by Salikh Ibn-al-Khusain (died 1200), Ahmad at-Qarafi (died 1285), Sa'id Ibn-Khasan (died 1320), Muhammad Ibn-Abi-Talib (died 1327), Ibn-Taimija (died 1328) and many others. From then on it became a fixed ingredient of Muslim apologetics."

Source: http://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/Text/wijngaards.html

See also: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/74312

THE BIBLE IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN CORRUPTED.

THIS IS A LIE FROM THE PIT OF HELL AND IT SMELLS LIKE SMOKE.

How the Virgin Birth Refutes Islam - Part 4

The Virgin Birth is a real head-scratcher vis-a-vis the Quran. This doctrine carries with it the doctrines of the Deity of Jesus Christ, the Trinity, the doctrine that God begets, and many other doctrines that the Quran rejects.

To accept the doctrine of the Virgin Birth but reject these concomitant doctrines is like saying you have fingers, but no hand, arm, or shoulder. There is a logical intuitive organic connection that cannot be broken.

Come on man, we're really getting to the heart of the matter. We've been reasoning together for months. If you have the courage to drill down on the Virgin Birth and try to understand what it really means, I guarantee I can show you that the Bible explains the doctrine in beautiful detail, while the Quran just hangs it out there--and then refutes it by denying it's purpose.