Doctrine of the Trinity in the OT - Continuned

Originally posted by islamispeace

This is from Numbers, not Deuteronomy.

Yes, that was a misquoted reference. Thanks for the correction.

 

Originally posted by islamispeace

And as with the above verse, this is just a random verse which has been twisted to say something which it is not saying.

 

Neither reference is alone conclusive, only more bricks in the building of the Doctrine of the Trinity in the Old Tesatment.

 

Originally posted by islamispeace

What is more interesting is that the word used to refer to God in these verses is not "Elohim" but rather "Adonay", which is further proof that "Elohim" has not relation to a trinity, if the trinity concept is even present in those verses and in the OT (which it is not). 

 

No, you are incorrect, it is  יהוה  (Yahweh) in both the Numbers and the Isaiah passages.

Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

The Hebrew Bible also mentions the Spirit of God:

 

ורוח אלהים מרחפת על פני המים

 

and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters Gen 1:2

 

and a Son who will be called אל גבור  (El Gibor = Mighty God) עמנו אל (Immanu El = God with us) Isaiah 9:6 and 7:14 

 

Originally posted by islamispeace

More misquotes.  The verse from Isaiah 9 is again out of context, as the verse also says that the child will be called "Eternal Father" which in no way applies to Jesus as he was never referred to with that title.

  

This is a straw man. In Hebrew the word שמ (Shem) means more than just name or title it means: fame, renown, memorial, repute, an appellation, as a mark or memorial of individuality; by implication honor, authority, character.

 

It's a multifaceted word and it means that the Son would be אביעד (Abi-Ad). Now אב (Ab) not only means Father in a literal sense but also in a figurative sense as the producer or generator. Thus  אביעד (Abi-Ad) is the one who fathered or generated or produced eternity. Of course this is the same God mentioned in Genesis 1:1--but is here a Son.

 

This is what Jesus was saying in John 8:28:

 

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 8:58

 

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." John 8:58

 

Jesus was born after Abraham died yet He existed before Abraham was born. This is because he fathered, produced, generated eternity prior to his incarnation as a Son and Child.

 

Jesus is the Son in Isaiah 9:6

 

(Sorry, the quote system is not working thus I put all my comments in bold)

Doctrine of the Trinity in the OT - Point 5

Let's move on to Point 5 in the Doctrine of the Trinity in the Old Testament:

 

5. Micah 5:2:

 

ואתה בית לחם אפרתה צעיר להיות באלפי יהודה--ממך לי יצא להיות מושל בישראל ומוצאתיו מקדם מימי עולם

 

But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity Micah 5:2

 

The "Me" in this verse is God and the "One" is also God since he is said to be eternal. However they are clearly two different persons, right?

Edited by Egwpisteuw - Yesterday at 4:02pm

God's Word Cannot be Corrupted

Originally posted by islamispeace

Both you and your "800 pound gorilla" are suffering from denial.  Any person with an ounce of reason will see that you are chasing your own tail and making a fool out of yourself.  You know in school when you take an exam and leave a question blank, you get the question wrong!  You have failed to refute the arguments I have raised and instead simply repeat the same tired, old arguments. 

 

This is just more ad hominem abuse and idle words. It's nothing more than a tacit admission that you can't answer my argument which I have reduced to down to an ultra-succint formulation:

 

An inccoruptible God can only produce an incorruptible word.

 

Originally posted by islamispeace

the contradictions in the Bible

 

If the Bible has contradictions then you and I both need to become Atheists becasuse:

 

Jesus says the Bible has no contradictions:

 

ου δυναται λυθηναι η γραφη ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 10:35

 

the Scripture cannot be broken John 10:35

 

and the Quran specifically confirms this statement:

 

He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

 

The Blood of Christ and the OT Blood Sacrifices

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Sign*Reader


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_BoltzThanks but no thanks

This is ad hominem abuse:

 

Ad hominem abuse (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to invalidate his argument, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensible character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.

 

By resorting to such a logically fallacious tactic you are simply making a tacit admission that you cannot answer my argument:

 

All the blood of the innumerable pure innocent animals sacrificed over all those centuries under the OT Levitical system are the type and THE BLOOD of THE LAMB, Jesus Christ, the pure and sinless one, who was crucified and died is the antitype. These two historical facts go hand in glove and are a stunning refutation of Islam. 

The Incorruptibility of God's Word - 2

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

Why would I ever entrust a whimsical, capricious, ne'er-do-well god, whose word he allowed to be corrupted by man, with the salvation of my soul?

The debate is about about you spamming Ibn Hazm... 

What assurance do I have that he will not also allow my soul to be lost and corrupted the same way he allowed his word to be lost and corrupted?

Again you are not addressing the subject...

Sign*Reader, the subject is a theological debate. Ibn Hazm posited the Doctrine of the Corruption of God's Word. This doctrine is the cornerstone of Islamic Apologetics (1).  Without this doctrine, Islam cannot be defended since the Quran, on which it is based, says it agrees with the Bible (Surah 3:3), but clearly, upon examination, does not.

Ibn Hazm did not think through the logical implications of his doctrine. A god who cannot keep his word is a god who cannot be trusted--just as a man who cannot keep his word is a man who cannot be trusted.

I entrust my soul to my Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Mighty God of Isaiah 9:6 who became the God With Us of Isaiah 7:14 and the God Whose Word endures forever in Isaiah 40:8

(1) Let me take you to school on the following error that you made:

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

There are no Muslim apologetics; it is  Christian phenomena, the premise is false!

a·pol·o·get·ics   /əˌpɒləˈdʒɛtɪks/ Show Spelled

the branch of theology concerned with the defense or proof of christianity.

The English word Apologetics is from the Greek απολογία (apologia) meaning a verbal defense, a speech in defense, a reasoned statement or argument. Thus the more correct definition is as follows:

the discipline of defending a position (usually religious) through the systematic use of reason.

The Incorruptibility of God's Word

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

I had been on the fence on this thread_______________ LOL

Welcome to the party Sign*reader. Hop on the bus with Islamispeace and let me take you to school.

 

First in your long epistle you neglected to adress the 800 pound Gorilla in the room (as did Isalmispeace):

 

Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

So now let's hone in. I keep repeating myself because you keep ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room:

 

Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

God is incorruptible thus His Word  must also be incorruptible.

 

This is the only valid theological Doctrine of God's Word

 

Why would I ever entrust a whimsical, capricious, ne'er-do-well god, whose word he allowed to be corrupted by man, with the salvation of my soul? What assurance do I have that he will not also allow my soul to be lost and corrupted the same way he allowed his word to be lost and corrupted?

 

No sir. Such a god is not God.

 

The God of the Bible said that His name endures forever:

 

יהוה שמך לעולם

Your name, O LORD, endures forever (Psalm 135:13)

 

and that His Word is even more sure than His name:

 

הגדלת על-כל-שמך אמרתך

you have magnified your word above all your name (Psalm 138:2)

 

Thus the conclusion in Isaiah:

 

יבש חציר נבל ציץ ודבר אלהינו יקום לעולם 

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever. Isaiah 40:8

 

repeated by Peter:

 

τὸ δὲ ῥῆμα κυρίου μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα

BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER 1 Peter 1:25

 

Now such a God I can entrust with the salvation of my soul.

 

הללו־יה 

αλληλουια

Hallelujah!

The Trinity in Genesis 1:1

[QUOTE=honeto]God as One is probably the oldest teachings dating back to the Old Testament times[/QUOTE]

The oldest teaching is that God is a singularity that is also a plurality. This is from the very first verse in the Bible:

 

בראשית ברא אלהים

 

In the beginning God created (Gensis 1:1)

 

אלהים Elohim (God) is a plural noun

 

ברא Bara (created) is a singular verb

 

ראשית (reshit) begininng is from ראש (rosh) meaning head, top, height, chief, best.

 

Thus the highest teaching about God is contained in the first three words of the Bible in which He presents Himself as a singularity that is also a plurality.